<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Legal brainstorming</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.retrode.org/2009/07/legal-brainstorming/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.retrode.org/2009/07/legal-brainstorming/</link>
	<description>home of the world&#039;s first USB reader for classic console games</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 30 Aug 2010 21:19:39 +0200</lastBuildDate>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.4</generator>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
		<item>
		<title>By: dave</title>
		<link>http://www.retrode.org/2009/07/legal-brainstorming/comment-page-1/#comment-807</link>
		<dc:creator>dave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Feb 2010 00:13:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.retrode.org/wordpress/?p=258#comment-807</guid>
		<description>my brother points out to me that I said &quot;master system&quot; but I meant genesis / mega drive.. I do that all the effin time..</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>my brother points out to me that I said &#8220;master system&#8221; but I meant genesis / mega drive.. I do that all the effin time..</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: dave</title>
		<link>http://www.retrode.org/2009/07/legal-brainstorming/comment-page-1/#comment-804</link>
		<dc:creator>dave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Feb 2010 15:40:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.retrode.org/wordpress/?p=258#comment-804</guid>
		<description>Anyone ever hear of Pier Solar?  It&#039;s a game being developed for the Sega Master System.. 20 years later.. the preorders are $35 and it gets your cartridge and audio disc + goodies.. getting sidetracked.

How can they legally produce an unlicensed game for one of Sega&#039;s old systems?  If they can make games for a defunct system, I would hope that you would be allowed to make devices for the purpose of using the games.  (knowing what we do about system vs cartridge lifespans)

It&#039;s probably very naive of me to feel that way, but still.. I just don&#039;t see you getting in any hot water over lil&#039;ol&#039; Retrode.  If anything, I&#039;d imagine it will drum up attention for old games, rather than detract from their sales.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Anyone ever hear of Pier Solar?  It&#8217;s a game being developed for the Sega Master System.. 20 years later.. the preorders are $35 and it gets your cartridge and audio disc + goodies.. getting sidetracked.</p>
<p>How can they legally produce an unlicensed game for one of Sega&#8217;s old systems?  If they can make games for a defunct system, I would hope that you would be allowed to make devices for the purpose of using the games.  (knowing what we do about system vs cartridge lifespans)</p>
<p>It&#8217;s probably very naive of me to feel that way, but still.. I just don&#8217;t see you getting in any hot water over lil&#8217;ol&#8217; Retrode.  If anything, I&#8217;d imagine it will drum up attention for old games, rather than detract from their sales.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: MetaKirbyKnight</title>
		<link>http://www.retrode.org/2009/07/legal-brainstorming/comment-page-1/#comment-171</link>
		<dc:creator>MetaKirbyKnight</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Aug 2009 01:52:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.retrode.org/wordpress/?p=258#comment-171</guid>
		<description>The cartridge could be considered copy-protection. But it is legal to circumvent, under the Fair Use Act, it if it is an obsolete technology, as defined by it&#039;s commercial availability. SNES carts aren&#039;t commercially available, are they?

So, that really doesn&#039;t count in their favor.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The cartridge could be considered copy-protection. But it is legal to circumvent, under the Fair Use Act, it if it is an obsolete technology, as defined by it&#8217;s commercial availability. SNES carts aren&#8217;t commercially available, are they?</p>
<p>So, that really doesn&#8217;t count in their favor.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Mitch</title>
		<link>http://www.retrode.org/2009/07/legal-brainstorming/comment-page-1/#comment-168</link>
		<dc:creator>Mitch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Aug 2009 16:26:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.retrode.org/wordpress/?p=258#comment-168</guid>
		<description>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_shifting 

Space Shifting is your best argument.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_shifting" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_shifting</a> </p>
<p>Space Shifting is your best argument.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Mitch</title>
		<link>http://www.retrode.org/2009/07/legal-brainstorming/comment-page-1/#comment-167</link>
		<dc:creator>Mitch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Aug 2009 16:17:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.retrode.org/wordpress/?p=258#comment-167</guid>
		<description>Here is some light reading on the subject.
http://www.law.northwestern.edu/journals/njtip/v2/n2/3/Conley.pdf

http://tags.library.upenn.edu/project/35437

http://tags.library.upenn.edu/tag/roms

The Question of ROMs by Chuck Cochems is one of the better articles I have read. The idea comes from the betamax case. 

My idea comes from CDs. We could easily make a copy of our CDs into mp3 format for our own &quot;personal use.&quot; We would be protected under &quot;fair use.&quot;  We still can&#039;t distribute those to others. Now this does hurt the music company in one way. We don&#039;t have to now buy the mp3s to put them on our ipod. Similar to argument that if we make our own roms we wouldn&#039;t have to buy them from nintendo for the virtual console. Either way creating our own roms is essentially &quot;space shifting,&quot; and should be protected under &quot;fair use.&quot; The problem is that the devices made to do this (cart readers) have been ruled illegal, because they &quot;allow&quot; for copyright infringement. Essentially since they could be used to do something illegal the devices themselves have been deemed illegal. First case was Atari vs JS&amp;A. Every device since has met a similar fate. But lets jump back to our mp3 analogy. CD rippers are perfectly legal. In fact iTunes and Windows Media Player both allow you to rip your own CDs into mp3 format. See RIAA vs Diamond Multimedia. So you would simply have to convince a court that your device performs the same function as a CD ripper does, but for games. &quot;The court has endorsed the point that it is entirely proper for consumers to make copies of digital recordings that they own or have acquired properly.&quot; &quot;Consumers are free to space-shift.&quot; To further strengthen the point you could use the dingoo or the gp2x wiz as portable rom players as a justification for &quot;space-shifting&quot; of roms. http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/is99/RioSpaceShifter.htm</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here is some light reading on the subject.<br />
<a href="http://www.law.northwestern.edu/journals/njtip/v2/n2/3/Conley.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.law.northwestern.edu/journals/njtip/v2/n2/3/Conley.pdf</a></p>
<p><a href="http://tags.library.upenn.edu/project/35437" rel="nofollow">http://tags.library.upenn.edu/project/35437</a></p>
<p><a href="http://tags.library.upenn.edu/tag/roms" rel="nofollow">http://tags.library.upenn.edu/tag/roms</a></p>
<p>The Question of ROMs by Chuck Cochems is one of the better articles I have read. The idea comes from the betamax case. </p>
<p>My idea comes from CDs. We could easily make a copy of our CDs into mp3 format for our own &#8220;personal use.&#8221; We would be protected under &#8220;fair use.&#8221;  We still can&#8217;t distribute those to others. Now this does hurt the music company in one way. We don&#8217;t have to now buy the mp3s to put them on our ipod. Similar to argument that if we make our own roms we wouldn&#8217;t have to buy them from nintendo for the virtual console. Either way creating our own roms is essentially &#8220;space shifting,&#8221; and should be protected under &#8220;fair use.&#8221; The problem is that the devices made to do this (cart readers) have been ruled illegal, because they &#8220;allow&#8221; for copyright infringement. Essentially since they could be used to do something illegal the devices themselves have been deemed illegal. First case was Atari vs JS&amp;A. Every device since has met a similar fate. But lets jump back to our mp3 analogy. CD rippers are perfectly legal. In fact iTunes and Windows Media Player both allow you to rip your own CDs into mp3 format. See RIAA vs Diamond Multimedia. So you would simply have to convince a court that your device performs the same function as a CD ripper does, but for games. &#8220;The court has endorsed the point that it is entirely proper for consumers to make copies of digital recordings that they own or have acquired properly.&#8221; &#8220;Consumers are free to space-shift.&#8221; To further strengthen the point you could use the dingoo or the gp2x wiz as portable rom players as a justification for &#8220;space-shifting&#8221; of roms. <a href="http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/is99/RioSpaceShifter.htm" rel="nofollow">http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/is99/RioSpaceShifter.htm</a></p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: J. Evans Turner</title>
		<link>http://www.retrode.org/2009/07/legal-brainstorming/comment-page-1/#comment-92</link>
		<dc:creator>J. Evans Turner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Aug 2009 03:44:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.retrode.org/wordpress/?p=258#comment-92</guid>
		<description>I owned the Doctor V64 and V64 Jr devices. I know that they could be used for piracy, but Bung&#039;s claim that they could be used as cheap development hardware certainly has merit. There was plenty of N64 homebrew long before software emulators existed. Professional developers also used these devices. I remember some TV documentary that featured game development at Iguana Studios (creators of the Turok game franchise). I clearly saw a Dr V64 in use at their game development studio. I believe this was on the Discovery Channel a LONG time ago.

The fundamental difference is that those devices attached to the game console and contained enough memory to simulate a game cartridge. ROM data could be loaded into the internal memory from a PC and played on the original console, long before software emulators existed. A user could download a game through the Internet or copy rented / borrowed games. You could archive them on your PC or put a few dozen onto a CD-R (fairly new technology at the time of the Dr V64), then play them back on the N64. This still offered a better experience than today&#039;s buggy N64 software emulators. I still miss the resources on sites like Dextrose and BlackBag!

A legitimate, useful function of your device is that it allows you to manage the battery-backed data that contains your saved progress / high scores / etc. When the cartridge battery goes dead, the data would be lost and could not be restored. Your device would allow the backup / restoration of this data...and does not infringe on copyright any more than the memory card / save data managers that come built-in with today&#039;s game systems.

Your device does not allow you to load copyrighted information onto a blank / writable cartridge, so it does not enable piracy like the devices from Bung. I don&#039;t think you have anything to worry about.

Your project does remind me of one of the best accessories I ever used. The N64 / USB &quot;Adaptoid&quot; worked as a standard HID-compliant USB came controller and didn&#039;t require any software. An optional driver would enable an API that all N64 emulators supported. This allowed emulated games to use the I/O of the controller&#039;s memory pak slot. Emulated games could fully support the Memory Pak, GB Pak, Rumble Pak, Bio Pak, microphone, mouse, dance mat, etc ... just about ANY accessory that ever existed for N64!

The Adaptoid also allowed the games to accurately read the position of the control stick. Any other USB adapter for game consoles converts the circular range of a thumb stick to a square range, which is then converted back to a circular range by the emulator...resulting in a loss of precision and some undesirable effects in some games. With the API, this problem was solved. It also supported force feedback for PC games. A specific button combination would set the Rumble back to vibrate and you could use the thumb stick to set the vibration level. Other button combinations allowed the functions of the D-Pad and thumb stuck to be swapped on-the-fly without exiting / reconfiguring a PC game.

-Ichinisan</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I owned the Doctor V64 and V64 Jr devices. I know that they could be used for piracy, but Bung&#8217;s claim that they could be used as cheap development hardware certainly has merit. There was plenty of N64 homebrew long before software emulators existed. Professional developers also used these devices. I remember some TV documentary that featured game development at Iguana Studios (creators of the Turok game franchise). I clearly saw a Dr V64 in use at their game development studio. I believe this was on the Discovery Channel a LONG time ago.</p>
<p>The fundamental difference is that those devices attached to the game console and contained enough memory to simulate a game cartridge. ROM data could be loaded into the internal memory from a PC and played on the original console, long before software emulators existed. A user could download a game through the Internet or copy rented / borrowed games. You could archive them on your PC or put a few dozen onto a CD-R (fairly new technology at the time of the Dr V64), then play them back on the N64. This still offered a better experience than today&#8217;s buggy N64 software emulators. I still miss the resources on sites like Dextrose and BlackBag!</p>
<p>A legitimate, useful function of your device is that it allows you to manage the battery-backed data that contains your saved progress / high scores / etc. When the cartridge battery goes dead, the data would be lost and could not be restored. Your device would allow the backup / restoration of this data&#8230;and does not infringe on copyright any more than the memory card / save data managers that come built-in with today&#8217;s game systems.</p>
<p>Your device does not allow you to load copyrighted information onto a blank / writable cartridge, so it does not enable piracy like the devices from Bung. I don&#8217;t think you have anything to worry about.</p>
<p>Your project does remind me of one of the best accessories I ever used. The N64 / USB &#8220;Adaptoid&#8221; worked as a standard HID-compliant USB came controller and didn&#8217;t require any software. An optional driver would enable an API that all N64 emulators supported. This allowed emulated games to use the I/O of the controller&#8217;s memory pak slot. Emulated games could fully support the Memory Pak, GB Pak, Rumble Pak, Bio Pak, microphone, mouse, dance mat, etc &#8230; just about ANY accessory that ever existed for N64!</p>
<p>The Adaptoid also allowed the games to accurately read the position of the control stick. Any other USB adapter for game consoles converts the circular range of a thumb stick to a square range, which is then converted back to a circular range by the emulator&#8230;resulting in a loss of precision and some undesirable effects in some games. With the API, this problem was solved. It also supported force feedback for PC games. A specific button combination would set the Rumble back to vibrate and you could use the thumb stick to set the vibration level. Other button combinations allowed the functions of the D-Pad and thumb stuck to be swapped on-the-fly without exiting / reconfiguring a PC game.</p>
<p>-Ichinisan</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Matthias_H</title>
		<link>http://www.retrode.org/2009/07/legal-brainstorming/comment-page-1/#comment-68</link>
		<dc:creator>Matthias_H</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Jul 2009 22:44:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.retrode.org/wordpress/?p=258#comment-68</guid>
		<description>Phew. Thank you for these suggestions. However, both options would mean having to compromise one of the key design principles, namely unlimited compatibility to USB Mass Storage - and its beautiful universality regarding the host system and OS. I cannot think of any way of implementing what you call a &quot;DRM&quot;. If the emulator can read it, it can also be copied. Waiting for a zillion emu developers (most of who abandoned their projects a long time ago) to implement proprietary - yet standardized - reading and writing routines doesn&#039;t sound like much fun either. And again, if the emulator can read it, someone will add a copying routine.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Phew. Thank you for these suggestions. However, both options would mean having to compromise one of the key design principles, namely unlimited compatibility to USB Mass Storage &#8211; and its beautiful universality regarding the host system and OS. I cannot think of any way of implementing what you call a &#8220;DRM&#8221;. If the emulator can read it, it can also be copied. Waiting for a zillion emu developers (most of who abandoned their projects a long time ago) to implement proprietary &#8211; yet standardized &#8211; reading and writing routines doesn&#8217;t sound like much fun either. And again, if the emulator can read it, someone will add a copying routine.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>
